Prime Minister of Australia : Transcript of interview with Barry Cassidy

SUN 01 JULY 2012 Prime Minister Subject(s): Carbon pricing; Expert panel on asylum seekers; Visit of Indonesian President; Minerals Resource Rent Tax; Convergence Review; Peter Slipper

HOST: Prime Minister, good morning, welcome.

PM: Good morning, Barrie.

HOST: So that's what you face if Tony Abbott has his way, a referendum on prime ministers who tell lies.

PM: Tony Abbott will have to look people in the eye at the time of the next election and explain to them how he's taking their tax cuts away, their family payment increases, their pension increases.

He'll also have to look them in the eye and explain why he spent so many months making false claims about the effect of carbon pricing.

And the truth is, Barrie, even if Mr Abbott ever becomes prime minister in this country he won't take carbon pricing away. He'll engage in a little fiddle, a little fudge to kind of pretend but carbon pricing will still be here.

HOST: That language that he uses though, and he does call you a liar often, after a while you think it has to hurt politically, if not personally?

PM: Well, I've explained the circumstances of the last election campaign, and when I said those words about a carbon tax I meant every one.

But our nation's been involved in a debate now for many long years about putting a price on carbon and tackling climate change and we have got this done.

Yes, with a fixed price, a carbon tax, if you like, for the first three years and then an emissions trading scheme to follow.

The kind of emissions trading scheme that Prime Minister Howard stood for and Mr Abbott stool alongside him advocating in the 2007 election.

HOST: Well you say he won't - there won't be a carbon tax under Tony Abbott but that would be partly because in opposition you will still support a carbon tax, you won't allow him to repeal it?

PM: I'm saying something completely different, Barrie. Mr Abbott will find a fiddle or a fudge and carbon pricing will stay.

HOST: But you will vote against any move by him to repeal it?

PM: We believe in putting a price on carbon, in tackling climate change, in protecting our environment, in strengthening our economy. As a Labor Party, as a Labor Government we haven't done all of this for no reason.

We've done it because we believe it's pivotal to Australia's future. So of course we will seek to protect it. But I am putting a broader point to you.

HOST: But that's why he won't need a fiddle or a fudge.

PM: No, I'm putting to you a different point which is: carbon pricing starts today, tax cuts start today.

People have already seen pension increases and family payment increases and this assistance to families around the country will continue. Businesses have got themselves ready for carbon pricing. New investments are being made.

Now against all of that backdrop Mr Abbott will find himself in a position where he cannot go to the next election pretending anything else than carbon pricing is going to stay.

I've seen these debates before, Barrie, I was opposed to the GST, but once it was in operation it was clear to all that there was no going back.

And here we are, after all these years of the GST, a big divisive debate and it's not something top of mind for anyone in Australia's public debate today.

HOST: Were you wrong to oppose the GST?

PM: Look, in hindsight I was very concerned about the circumstances of low-income Australians, I was very concerned about it being a regressive tax.

I still consider that those kind of taxes are regressive taxes, but the system changed and you had to accept the reality of the new system.

HOST: And you wouldn't have it any other way now, would you?

PM: Well Barrie, we're not debating the GST today, we're debating carbon pricing.

HOST: No, but there are parallels because oppositions oppose and Tony Abbott is constantly accused of being a negative but that's what Labor did during the GST?

PM: I think with Mr Abbott in particular, what we've seen is false claims, reckless claims made day after day. And today's the day that he's got to account for them. I mean has the coal industry shut down today, Barrie?

Are your news rooms flashing up on their screens that coal is no longer being mined in Australia? Are your news rooms flashing up on their screens that everybody's Sunday roast today is costing them $100 a roast?

Well of course that's not happening. And today and in the days to come Mr Abbott must be held to account for every false claim he has made about putting a price on carbon.

HOST: But even if a roast doesn't cost $100 people do feel the squeeze at the moment, they feel as if, whether it's true or not, that the cost of living is going up all the time. So every time prices go up no matter how, but whether it's at the margins or not they're going to blame the carbon tax?

PM: I think Australians are pretty smart, pretty practical people and they will judge it through their lived experience. They'll see, millions of them, seven million of them in their pay packet in the coming week the benefit of the tax cuts.

And the significance of that shouldn't be underestimated. We are tripling the tax free threshold. That is we're putting a price on something we want to see less of, carbon pollution, and rewarding people for something we value, work.

A million Australians won't have their pay packet touched by the taxman. They will get to keep every dollar they earn and people earning less than $80,000 a year will all see a tax cut. Many of them a tax cut of around $300.

So they'll get their pay packet, they'll see the tax cut, they'll go to the shops, they will do the weekly shop, they'll ask themselves 'Does that cost me more than last week?'

They will look at the tax cut and they will work it through the weeks and months ahead.

HOST: No doubt you've got your members right around the country sending that message this week but do you think they will be pulled up in the street a lot of them and given a bit of a serve over asylum seekers and the lack of action?

PM: I think people will be talking about carbon pricing. Yes, they'll be talking about asylum seekers too.

But in the period ahead, Barrie, whether it's today or in the weeks or months ahead, I think Australians will judge carbon pricing from the experience that they live.

And I believe when the dust settles in the months ahead people will come to see it as the right move for Australia's future.

HOST: And on asylum seekers?

PM: That's where I think carbon pricing will take us to.

HOST: And on asylum seekers, there is no policy. That has to be embarrassing for you as a Prime Minister?

PM: I have been prepared every step of the way to work to get a solution here and I am still prepared to do so. In terms of, you know, the Labor Party's policy and plans; we with the benefit of expert advice designed the arrangement with Malaysia.

We were very careful about the human rights protections that went with it, so the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has been involved in the discussions.

The central tenet of the refugee convention that you don't return someone to a place where they would be persecuted or at risk will be upheld, and people smugglers would be sent the strongest message that they cannot represent to desperate people that they can get them to Australia.

Now that's what the Government wants to see. I understand.

HOST: The Parliament didn't accept it any of it.

PM: I understand.

HOST: The Parliament didn't accept any of it.

PM: Yep, I understand Mr Abbott wants to see Nauru opened, and we said we would do that too.

So, we have been prepared to compromise every step of the way. To that, we have seen Mr Abbott and the Coalition join with the Greens to just say no to any effective action here.

HOST: So what do you tell president Yudhoyono when you meet him this week, that you have no policy?

PM: I talk frequently to the president of Indonesia. We've got a strong and robust relationship between our two countries; and it's not fair, Barrie, to see it through the prism of people smuggling.

Our relationship is a deep one on the economy and trade, on education links, on development links within the G20, in the East Asia Summit and the list goes on.

Indonesia is a very important partner to us and we do cooperate very strongly with Indonesia on people smuggling. And they have seen some success for their efforts in the past few years.

They've disrupted around 300 people smuggling ventures, they've made arrests so Indonesia has been active working with Australia to try and combat this very evil trade.

HOST: They have been active and they would have been paying attention to what happened in Parliament last week as well. And now you have to sit opposite him this week, what do you say to him?

PM: President Yudhoyono, I'm sure, will be aware of events in Australia.

I will say to him that the Government is still working and working hard to get an outcome here, and now we have asked three very eminent Australians to assist us with getting that outcome.

HOST: And that's called outsourcing, as Tony Abbott has described it as outsourcing?

PM: Well I think this says something very interesting about Mr Abbott actually.

I mean the essence of modern government is that you do need expert advice, whether it's from the Treasury on your budget, whether it's from education experts on what we can do to lift kids out of disadvantage, whether it's from indigenous leaders about what we can do to close the gap for, say, life expectancies between indigenous and non indigenous Australians.

Mr Abbott is basically saying he will not listen to advice, he won't listen to eminent Australians, he won't listen to anyone.

He thinks it's satisfactory to just say no in the way that he did in the last week, where he basically voted against stopping the boats despite his sloganeering.

HOST: He said they're good people but I've got a policy thanks very much. So what's the point? He won't change his mind no matter what they come up with?

PM: Barrie, the point is of course that our nation should have the benefit of the most expert advice that we can.

And I think these three Australians, Angus Houston, Michael L'Estrange, Paris Aristotle cannot be questioned on their credentials to provide such advice.

HOST: But you must know that Tony Abbott and the Greens are absolutely serious on this. They're not going to change their minds no matter what they come up with. So it makes it a pointless exercise, doesn't it?

PM: No, it makes it a question for them. As people drown at sea, as we see people risking their lives on leaky boats, as three eminent Australians deliver advice, what kind of person would you be?

What kind of person is it who watches that misery, watches that pain, sees that death, hears the advice from experts and won't change their minds one millimetre, won't accept that advice at all? What kind of person does that, Barrie?

HOST: If they come out against the Malaysian solution will you accept that?

PM: I've said we will take with the utmost significance in terms of Government deliberations the advice of the expert panel. I wouldn't have done it, Barrie, if I wasn't in the business of taking the greatest regard possible for what they come out with.

HOST: So that puts Temporary Protection Visas back on the table as well?

PM: Well, Barrie, you need to be very clear about what's happened already to date.

We had the High Court case, unexpected, prevented the nation from offshore processing, put this Government in a different position to governments in the past. We could remedy that by going to the Parliament.

We went to the Parliament and said let's put governments in the same position that they've been in the past to make appropriate decisions as executive government about offshore processing. Mr Abbott said no.

We said okay, what about, we combine elements of what we are pushing and what you believe, Mr Abbott; so Malaysia, Nauru and an expert led process on Temporary Protection Visas. Mr Abbott said no.

Now I think that says more about Mr Abbott's outlook and character than it says about anything else.

HOST: Geoff Kitney wrote in the 'Financial Review' that Australians who hated this parliament hate it even more. Are politicians conscious of that sort of feeling out there?

PM: I'm conscious of the need to be providing solutions to the problems that our nation faces. That's why I've been so determined to deliver nation changing reforms like carbon pricing. And I saw you had the little bit with Gary Gray.

I mean today is a Sunday where Australians will go about their ordinary lives, but today is a day too when we seize the future. We seize a clean energy future.

The Minerals Resource Rent Tax come into operation, we seize a future of better sharing of the benefits of the mining boom.

These reforms stand alongside our other reforms: improving education, improving health, making sure we've got the benefits of new technology like the National Broadband Network.

People elect governments to get the big things done and that is what my Government is doing and will continue to do.

HOST: Just in the time left I want to ask you about media policy. Your Government is apparently considering a public interest test for media ownership. What sort of test? What will they be tested on?

PM: What the Government's considering is the Convergence Review and the work done by Mr Finkelstein. And when we're in a position to respond to both, Barrie, we will.

HOST: There could be a public interest test?

PM: Barrie, I'm not going to get into rule-in, rule-out games or speculation. We've received two reviews which we thought were important in this changing age for the media where all of the platforms are converging; so newspapers aren't just newspapers anymore, they're online sites, they're applications on your iPad.

We thought it was important to look again at media policy. And when we can respond to all of that we will.

HOST: And the revelations that Steve Lewis and News Limited might have had some involvement in the James Ashby, Peter Slipper matter. In conversations you've had with your colleagues, has that had an impact on their thinking?

PM: You would be aware, Barrie, that we set out on the Convergence Review and on the work done by Mr Finkelstein well before any of these events.

HOST: Yes, but do you think it's hardened up their attitudes?

PM: Look I think my colleagues have been conscious that we live in a rapidly changing age for the media, that in the past it was appropriate to say you regulate TV and radio over here, you regulate to some extent, and obviously we have a very free press, but government's engagement with newspapers is over here.

Now of course the whole lot is coming together and that is what is required us to look again.

HOST: Just finally, do you think Peter Slipper will be back in the chair when Parliament resumes in August?

PM: Look, I'm not making predictions about any of that. Mr Slipper, of course, faced some allegations from Mr Ashby and that matter is still being dealt with in the appropriate forum.

HOST: And there's no question, if he is cleared of these matters he will be back in the chair?

PM: Look, Barrie, I'm not going to speculate beyond noting, of course, that there is a legal proceeding in train here. Of course it's had a lot of spectacular coverage and you've been referring to some of it today.

HOST: But if he is cleared of all those matters why are you not able to say he won't be automatically cleared to go back into the chair?

PM: Look I don't want to prejudge circumstances-

HOST: But this is not prejudging. If he was to be cleared-

PM: Where there is a legal case involved. So Barrie, I'm not going to take it further than Mr Slipper is dealing with the legal matters in front of him.

Yes, they have been the subject of a lot of publicity because of not only Mr Ashby releasing his legal case to the media, I think it's true to say even before he filed it, but at least around the same time as he filed it, and subsequently the nature of the response from Mr Slipper and the Commonwealth becoming clear too.

HOST: Thanks for your time this morning, appreciate it.

PM: Thank you. 

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